A good bit of advice for youngsters
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Peen Simmons
Let’s Get Obtuse!
Bill Maher sucks. Jobs are made up bullshit. Money is fake. This video is just more miserable boomer/xer “tough titty” crapola.
shoeless
Riffin'
Follow your passion.
Peen Simmons
Let’s Get Obtuse!
The whole dichotomy of passion vs. cash and the whole idea of monetizing your passion and the broader notion of grinding your hustleset and whatnot is just capitalism’s propaganda. I object. I’d prefer not to.
Also, tough love and hard lessons for thee but not for me grinds my fucking gears. Old white dudes who have a later-in-life epiphany that dreams are over now are one of my pet peeves.
I get that it’s easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. But I’m willing to give it a whirl. Imagine there’s no marketing execs moonlighting as talking heads. It’s easy if you try.
Scott Galloway (professor) - Wikipedia
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shoeless
Riffin'
Interesting take. That wasn't my take-away at all.
As someone who watched his share of Disney channel and Nikelodeon shows with my kids as they were growing up, quite a few of them had the message of "follow your dreams no matter what anyone says, and good things will happen". While that may lead to success for a few, in reality most folks settle into a job that hopefully provides for their family, and those dreams turn into hobbies. I suspect many of us in this forum had dreams of being popular musicians playing to sold out stadiums, but here we are playing instruments as a hobby for the most part.
OTOH, the message of finding a high demand occupation and developing mastery in the field seems like sound advice to me. Certainly more useful than "follow your passion" in the real world. Becoming passionate about providing for your children and parents is usually something that happens as one ages. So yeah, seemed like viable a message to me. I didn't see it as tough love, but just some sound advice. Not sure what his race has to do with it.
As someone who watched his share of Disney channel and Nikelodeon shows with my kids as they were growing up, quite a few of them had the message of "follow your dreams no matter what anyone says, and good things will happen". While that may lead to success for a few, in reality most folks settle into a job that hopefully provides for their family, and those dreams turn into hobbies. I suspect many of us in this forum had dreams of being popular musicians playing to sold out stadiums, but here we are playing instruments as a hobby for the most part.
OTOH, the message of finding a high demand occupation and developing mastery in the field seems like sound advice to me. Certainly more useful than "follow your passion" in the real world. Becoming passionate about providing for your children and parents is usually something that happens as one ages. So yeah, seemed like viable a message to me. I didn't see it as tough love, but just some sound advice. Not sure what his race has to do with it.
baimun
Funkasaurus Rex
My biggest piece of advice to anyone 15 - 30 years old:
If you find something you're passionate about... Do it. Try it. Take some chances and have adventures.
Many kids want so badly to "be an adult", "get a job", and "join the real world" that they get caught up in the worst parts of the capitalist society hamster wheel. As the responsibilities and debt pile up, so does the strengthening of the chain that tethers you to that wheel where you end up with less and less options for change or opportunity.
That's why I encouraged my daughters to explore the things they were most excited to try when they were seniors in high school or first year of college. My oldest spent a year singing in Walt Disney World, then tried a year of working in the medical field in Tampa, then wanted to go back to singing and we recommended Nashville because we would be more accessible to drive and help her if needed. Instead she spent a year in Hollywood California with no car, couldn't get to auditions, ended up working in a medical records office and one week after we visited her, she called us crying that she needed to come home so had to fly back out and pack all her shit up to UPS it home. While Florida was great for her, Hollywood kind of broke her and she hated singing for several years. She did however get married, had two kids and is a great Mom now.
Our youngest was a competitive cheerleader and we spent a bunch on her travelling all over the Midwest, the Carolinas, and Florida for competitions. She didn't make the MSU Spartan cheer squad but was always interested in interior design. We helped her raise money for a two week cultural exploration, cooking classes, and tours in Italy. She had great experiences with the people, the food, the art and architecture, and it really inspired her. She changed schools from Lansing to Western Michigan in Kalamazoo because of their specialized interior design courses, and now has been a very successful commercial designer for Tower Pinkster in Grand Rapids. She recently wrapped up some high profile remodels for Phizer and her alma mater, Western Michigan where the Governor spoke in front of all the College leadership about the project.
If you find something you're passionate about... Do it. Try it. Take some chances and have adventures.
Many kids want so badly to "be an adult", "get a job", and "join the real world" that they get caught up in the worst parts of the capitalist society hamster wheel. As the responsibilities and debt pile up, so does the strengthening of the chain that tethers you to that wheel where you end up with less and less options for change or opportunity.
That's why I encouraged my daughters to explore the things they were most excited to try when they were seniors in high school or first year of college. My oldest spent a year singing in Walt Disney World, then tried a year of working in the medical field in Tampa, then wanted to go back to singing and we recommended Nashville because we would be more accessible to drive and help her if needed. Instead she spent a year in Hollywood California with no car, couldn't get to auditions, ended up working in a medical records office and one week after we visited her, she called us crying that she needed to come home so had to fly back out and pack all her shit up to UPS it home. While Florida was great for her, Hollywood kind of broke her and she hated singing for several years. She did however get married, had two kids and is a great Mom now.
Our youngest was a competitive cheerleader and we spent a bunch on her travelling all over the Midwest, the Carolinas, and Florida for competitions. She didn't make the MSU Spartan cheer squad but was always interested in interior design. We helped her raise money for a two week cultural exploration, cooking classes, and tours in Italy. She had great experiences with the people, the food, the art and architecture, and it really inspired her. She changed schools from Lansing to Western Michigan in Kalamazoo because of their specialized interior design courses, and now has been a very successful commercial designer for Tower Pinkster in Grand Rapids. She recently wrapped up some high profile remodels for Phizer and her alma mater, Western Michigan where the Governor spoke in front of all the College leadership about the project.
jp_nyc
Kick Henry Jackassowski
When I was in design school I had a teacher who told us he wished he’d majored in business and minored in design. He had the passion and the talent to make it as a designer, but it took him years to learn the business side of things so he left a lot of money on the table and got passed up for jobs that required some business skill. I always wished someone had given me that advice before I went to college. So when I meet a kid who wants to be an artist or a musician I tell them to go to business school because it’s better to have a business degree and get a job that pays well then it is to have an arts degree and get a job that pays shit. Either way you’re only going to have time for your passion on the weekends.
jrockbridge
Stealing Your Riffs
I know a young man who was a straight A student all through high school and college. His passion is business. His talent is engineering.
His father who is also an engineer urged him to study engineering. Instead he got a Bachelors degree in Business Administration. After graduation, he spent a year trying to get hired. He could not even land and HR job. He's back in school working on an engineering degree.
I'm certainly not suggesting that people should never follow their passion. But, it might be a good idea to have a Plan B.
His father who is also an engineer urged him to study engineering. Instead he got a Bachelors degree in Business Administration. After graduation, he spent a year trying to get hired. He could not even land and HR job. He's back in school working on an engineering degree.
I'm certainly not suggesting that people should never follow their passion. But, it might be a good idea to have a Plan B.
Peen Simmons
Let’s Get Obtuse!
Saddest two sentences ever. Basically the “For sale: baby shoes, never worn” of forum posts. I guess the only upside is the kid didn’t get a job in HR.
jrockbridge
Stealing Your Riffs
It's not sad. The kid is brilliant. He'll have a great life. He'll accomplish great things. He'll get married and raise a family.
He has plenty of other nerdy passions that he'll do in his spare time. One day he will probably open his own engineering business, hire employees enhancing many other lives in the process.
The losers of the world will look down on him. They'll be bitter. He'll be happy.
baimun
Funkasaurus Rex
I grew up doing fine arts... charcoal, oils, watercolors, sculpting... including adult art classes when I was in 5th and 7th grade and college art classes between Jr and Sr high school (before I grew my hair and played in rock bands my father didn't approve of.
) Then went to college on a Fine Arts scholarship... computers and electronics were just a hobby of mine (my dad was an Electrician and an Engineer). I tested out of all of my math classes so I was able to get in a couple computer science classes which I treated as "easy blast through my labs and get back over to the sculpting studio" type classes. I was also playing in bands and had auditioned with two different Chicago bands and was considering relocating when we met during our sophomore year and we were married by the time we were juniors.Once we were married and had 2 kids, I worked two jobs so she could quit her shitty office job, finish off her degree. I was thinking "should I be a starving artist... or a starving musician while trying to raise our kids?" I tried a couple commercial art jobs but hated them.... then thought "Hmm... I might be able to make some money doing this computer shit."
Over the years my wife got her Masters in Education, I worked supporting the networks of various large corporations, and ISP, and some MSPs.... had my own consulting firm... and now I just grind away with my Computer skills that fill my 401k and hang nice instruments on the wall... while I'm still more passionate about music and art. I just didn't have to rely on compromising my passions to raise my kids.
Oh yeah.... somewhere in the middle of all of that, I taught art at the local fine arts Academy for two years. That was always really interesting because I was usually the youngest person in the room.
Oftentimes I hate the fact that I was forced to do the things I "know" how to do to put food on the table instead of exploring the things I'm more passionate about... but that's why I preach what I originally wrote in this thread about taking advantage of all of the options that are out there before the speed and responsibilities of life narrow those boundaries for you.
DinoMikeSr
I have the box
Shit. This is all rich people bullshit. It’s worse when the rich people think they f’ing middle class because numbers on a page somewhere say they are.
From where I came from in the life to the one I was able to live I have been outrageously blessed. It wasn’t luck. MF’er talks about passion and following it like it’s a flick of the switch option.
From where I came from in the life to the one I was able to live I have been outrageously blessed. It wasn’t luck. MF’er talks about passion and following it like it’s a flick of the switch option.
baimun
Funkasaurus Rex
I read this and definitely get how this topic can come off too flippant.
My dad essentially ran away from his childhood home when he was only 15 years old from Indiana to Boston and made a living hustling pool in bars. Two years later he lied about his age to get into the Navy (when I asked him all these years later why he would do that, his reply was "runnin' tables makes some enemies"
) He got his GED after he got out of the Navy, got married, and they had two kids.We were a single income, blue collar, family living in an area where it seemed like everyone had bigger homes and more money than us. My first guitar was a Christmas gift from a pawn shop and the whole reason I learned how to make guitars is because I couldn't afford to buy one new in a store. If I hadn't studied and got a scholarship (which only covered my first year) I wouldn't have been able to go to college at all... and after my second year my parents couldn't help with books or anything.
My wife and I got married and the job I took while we were going to school was a maintenance man for an apartment community because it included an apartment. We didn't have any furniture at first, a mattress on the floor and some laundry baskets for our clothes. We only had one car that year. When I got my first office job I bought a broke-ass car for $5 that didn't have working speedometer or gas guage. The rear brake calipers were siezed and grinding and I couldn't afford to replace them, so I removed them and plugged the rear brake lines with a short piece of metal rod and a hose clamp. Front brakes alone were good enough to get me 35mph and back and forth the 7 miles to the office for a couple months until I had a couple paychecks, bought a Honda with 100K miles for $300, and then drove the broken car to the scrap yard.
Having two kids, college debt, the beginnings of an IT career, and the fear that I would never have the opportunity to think about art or music for the rest of my life.
It wasn't until my kids were in high school and I sang a couple songs at a Karaoke bar that I came back around to guitar and singing. My mother in law flipped her shit when she heard me sing Bon Jovi and Zepplin... "How did I not know you could sing like that?" and it hit me that I hadn't allowed myself to do anything but earn money and help raise our kids for 15 years.
Back to the OP, and my post.... Never take your dreams for granted. Wealthier people can just start a business on a whim, but even the poorest of us can take a chance to start from scratch in their 20s.
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jrockbridge
Stealing Your Riffs
I think most of us here must have some amount of passion for the guitar and music. Perhaps, some of us have even made it our life’s pursuit. Maybe, it pays for part, or all, of the bills.
Guitar and skiing are two of my biggest passions. But, I was late to pursuing both. For one thing, I lived in a desert, so skiing seemed like something I would only dream about. When I mentioned interest in a guitar and lessons to my Mom, she said that she had already wasted money on music lessons for my older brothers and sisters. She shut me down.
Another thing I was passionate about in high school was personal computers and programming. I became a self taught computer programmer. As a senior in high school, I partnered with one of my HS teachers and my older brother. The 3 of us made a lot of money producing and selling game software for the Commodore Pet computers. I used the money to fund college.
I went to a university in a mountain town. I had a college roommate who played guitar. I soon met people that skied. In short order I was pursuing my passion for guitar and skiing. But I was certainly never talented enough at any of my passions to make them my life’s work.
After avoiding my natural talent, English, for some time, I finally graduated with a Bachelor’s degree in Technical Writing. After college I tried to get a job in my field but the economy was so bad that I could not even get an interview. Instead I moved to a mountain town and continued to concentrate on my main passion skiing. I played guitar as a hobby.
I stopped programming computers. I never worked in the computer field.
I never pursued a career in Technical Writing. It’s a boring career. No regrets there.
I just worked whatever jobs I could find. I’ve mostly worked in sales.
I got married. My wife had our child. We raised our son. Those were also passions, goals and dreams for me.
I still ski. I still play guitar. I work. I’m still married to my wife. And we still raise our son who’s much older now.
Don’t follow my example. I was pretty irresponsible for most of my life. I did not really have a Plan B. Or, at least, I ignored my talent. I mainly spent time with passionate hobbies as if that was most important.
I probably could have made a lot more money if I had stuck with computers or technical writing. But, I just said WTF and did whatever instead.
“Every now and then, saying ‘What The F___,’ brings freedom. Freedom brings opportunity, opportunity makes your future.”
~Miles - Risky Business
Guitar and skiing are two of my biggest passions. But, I was late to pursuing both. For one thing, I lived in a desert, so skiing seemed like something I would only dream about. When I mentioned interest in a guitar and lessons to my Mom, she said that she had already wasted money on music lessons for my older brothers and sisters. She shut me down.
Another thing I was passionate about in high school was personal computers and programming. I became a self taught computer programmer. As a senior in high school, I partnered with one of my HS teachers and my older brother. The 3 of us made a lot of money producing and selling game software for the Commodore Pet computers. I used the money to fund college.
I went to a university in a mountain town. I had a college roommate who played guitar. I soon met people that skied. In short order I was pursuing my passion for guitar and skiing. But I was certainly never talented enough at any of my passions to make them my life’s work.
After avoiding my natural talent, English, for some time, I finally graduated with a Bachelor’s degree in Technical Writing. After college I tried to get a job in my field but the economy was so bad that I could not even get an interview. Instead I moved to a mountain town and continued to concentrate on my main passion skiing. I played guitar as a hobby.
I stopped programming computers. I never worked in the computer field.
I never pursued a career in Technical Writing. It’s a boring career. No regrets there.
I just worked whatever jobs I could find. I’ve mostly worked in sales.
I got married. My wife had our child. We raised our son. Those were also passions, goals and dreams for me.
I still ski. I still play guitar. I work. I’m still married to my wife. And we still raise our son who’s much older now.
Don’t follow my example. I was pretty irresponsible for most of my life. I did not really have a Plan B. Or, at least, I ignored my talent. I mainly spent time with passionate hobbies as if that was most important.
I probably could have made a lot more money if I had stuck with computers or technical writing. But, I just said WTF and did whatever instead.
“Every now and then, saying ‘What The F___,’ brings freedom. Freedom brings opportunity, opportunity makes your future.”
~Miles - Risky Business
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baimun
Funkasaurus Rex
I mean, there are different kinds of advice I would give to a kid who has a roof over his head and just wants to play videogames vs someone who is homeless and unemployed.
Obviously there are advantages if you already have a skill or any kind of knowledge in something.... like if I was dropped in a strange place with no money or phone in my pocket, I could probably find someone to donate a pen and some paper to me and I could probably do some sketches or portraits to at least put a couple bucks in my pocket for food until I could find a church or shelter to sleep.
When I had my "starving artist / starving musician" but was only a little way in school and suddenly (and stupidly by modern sensibilities and tax codes) responsible for a new family.... first I had a couple anxiety attacks... but then I went to a Temp Agency. Every couple days they'd send me to a different place.... I did some warehouse work, slid some metal parts into a tool/die machine, drained and power washed some RV refrigerators... but then I asked if I could test for some office work. I was an okay typist from school and teaching myself programming, but I sat in the lobby of the temp offices and read the manuals for Wordperfect... the old one with a blue screen and no user menu. You had to memorize all of the copy/paste/edit keyboard shortcuts (which happened to be the ones that Microsoft duplicated into later Word/Excel/Office and we still use them today). There was no toolbar or mouse... you either memorized all of the shortcuts or had the book next to you.
Each week or two I would be in some shaaaaady office that I think rotated temp labor in and out to keep people from figuring out the crooked shit they were cooking in the books. But the best (not crooked but definitely ruthless) and last temp job I had was working for the German Bayer Corporation that was buying up Miles Laboratories... the inventors of Alka Selzer.
It was a lot of verifying that their English translations were good on all of the documents (there was rudimentary spell check when you launched it on a highlighted word but no grammar checking, I created a lot of sales training documents, and updated Org charts (which was awkward like the time I overheard someone talking about a boat they bought and I already knew they were going to be let go the following week.
) Besides getting a hawks eye view for how the top/middle/bottom of corporations actually ran, I later found that I soaked up most of that sales training and was able to use it when I was doing technical support for Pre-Nextel "Sprint Cellular" (which merged with Ameritech and became Verizon) and eventually IT Consulting.
Getting back to the OP.... I guess other advice I'd give young people is to always be prepared to get in there, get your hands dirty, make mistakes, get fired a couple times, listen when people have knowledge to share but be ready to challenge authority if what they're doing is unethical or illogical.
Obviously there are advantages if you already have a skill or any kind of knowledge in something.... like if I was dropped in a strange place with no money or phone in my pocket, I could probably find someone to donate a pen and some paper to me and I could probably do some sketches or portraits to at least put a couple bucks in my pocket for food until I could find a church or shelter to sleep.
When I had my "starving artist / starving musician" but was only a little way in school and suddenly (and stupidly by modern sensibilities and tax codes) responsible for a new family.... first I had a couple anxiety attacks... but then I went to a Temp Agency. Every couple days they'd send me to a different place.... I did some warehouse work, slid some metal parts into a tool/die machine, drained and power washed some RV refrigerators... but then I asked if I could test for some office work. I was an okay typist from school and teaching myself programming, but I sat in the lobby of the temp offices and read the manuals for Wordperfect... the old one with a blue screen and no user menu. You had to memorize all of the copy/paste/edit keyboard shortcuts (which happened to be the ones that Microsoft duplicated into later Word/Excel/Office and we still use them today). There was no toolbar or mouse... you either memorized all of the shortcuts or had the book next to you.
Each week or two I would be in some shaaaaady office that I think rotated temp labor in and out to keep people from figuring out the crooked shit they were cooking in the books.
But the best (not crooked but definitely ruthless) and last temp job I had was working for the German Bayer Corporation that was buying up Miles Laboratories... the inventors of Alka Selzer.It was a lot of verifying that their English translations were good on all of the documents (there was rudimentary spell check when you launched it on a highlighted word but no grammar checking, I created a lot of sales training documents, and updated Org charts (which was awkward like the time I overheard someone talking about a boat they bought and I already knew they were going to be let go the following week.
) Besides getting a hawks eye view for how the top/middle/bottom of corporations actually ran, I later found that I soaked up most of that sales training and was able to use it when I was doing technical support for Pre-Nextel "Sprint Cellular" (which merged with Ameritech and became Verizon) and eventually IT Consulting.Getting back to the OP.... I guess other advice I'd give young people is to always be prepared to get in there, get your hands dirty, make mistakes, get fired a couple times, listen when people have knowledge to share but be ready to challenge authority if what they're doing is unethical or illogical.
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shoeless
Riffin'
That's good life advice for anyone, regardless of age. Well, except maybe for the getting fired a couple of times part. I don't want to do that anymore.Getting back to the OP.... I guess other advice I'd give young people is to always be prepared to get in there, get your hands dirty, make mistakes, get fired a couple times, listen when people have knowledge to share but be ready to challenge authority if what they're doing is unethical or illogical.
jrockbridge
Stealing Your Riffs
~Lloyd Dobler - Say Anything
shoeless
Riffin'
Never trust anyone that shows up outside your daughter's bedroom window with a boombox.
baimun
Funkasaurus Rex
That's good life advice for anyone, regardless of age. Well, except maybe for the getting fired a couple of times part. I don't want to do that anymore.
I don't mean to TRY to get fired....
I mean, don't freak out if you happen to get fired for some reason or another. One of those production type jobs I got fired from because there was a girl there who thought I was cute and flirted with me a few times.... and my direct supervisor was her boyfriend. Good ol' Indiana is a "Right to Work" state which is code for "Right to Fire on a Whim" or Anti-union laws.
And one time my "position was eliminated" because I was the highest paid Senior Network Engineer, which I later found out that a couple other salaried people were cut between the top management and the help desk engineers because the owner was getting the payroll to a tidy size so he could sell the company to a competitor.
Of course it's natural to have "imposter syndrome" and feel like a complete failure when that happens... but sometimes you have to just take a deep breath and recalibrate. It was probably a year or two after getting cut from that IT firm that (besides making about 25K more than what I was when I worked there) got to hire away three of my previous co-workers who hated their new corporate overlords.
