Ratae Corieltauvorum
HCEG Exile
Chapmans have used a number of factories, Mirr maybe one of them, they've also used Rainbow Music in China, and obviously there's Made in England stuff
Agile Guitars - is it possible to discuss them?
- Thread starter Danhedonia
- Start date
Chapmans have used a number of factories, Mirr maybe one of them, they've also used Rainbow Music in China, and obviously there's Made in England stuff
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
Hopefully this can remain interesting-yet-not-flamey. Thanks for the posts - this is the conversation I wanted to eavesdrop on.
As a player/customer/schmoe in the wilderness, to me there's not a lot of difference between an Agile being made in Korea at Saein (sp?) vs. an SX being MIC (or wherever they're made) vs. a Squier Vintage Modified being made in Indonesia vs. a Fender Standard being made in Mexico.
If I expect one manufacturer to name their mfr. (e.g., World or Saein) shouldn't I expect that of all of them? I don't feel I've been deceived in any purchase (Ibanez, FMIC, Gibson, Epiphone, PRS, Agile, Yamaha, Burns, Eastwood, etc. etc. etc.).
It's much more interesting to me to see that Agile uses higher quality parts (hardware, pickups, etc.) at an equivalent or lower price point than manufacturers who maintain a focus on retail (let's say FMIC, because that's a mfr. I buy at retail). And aside from any irritation business practice of Balsa Wood And Spit, I'm confused as to why more manufacturers haven't attempted this business model. Or maybe they have and failed?
As a player/customer/schmoe in the wilderness, to me there's not a lot of difference between an Agile being made in Korea at Saein (sp?) vs. an SX being MIC (or wherever they're made) vs. a Squier Vintage Modified being made in Indonesia vs. a Fender Standard being made in Mexico.
If I expect one manufacturer to name their mfr. (e.g., World or Saein) shouldn't I expect that of all of them? I don't feel I've been deceived in any purchase (Ibanez, FMIC, Gibson, Epiphone, PRS, Agile, Yamaha, Burns, Eastwood, etc. etc. etc.).
It's much more interesting to me to see that Agile uses higher quality parts (hardware, pickups, etc.) at an equivalent or lower price point than manufacturers who maintain a focus on retail (let's say FMIC, because that's a mfr. I buy at retail). And aside from any irritation business practice of Balsa Wood And Spit, I'm confused as to why more manufacturers haven't attempted this business model. Or maybe they have and failed?
Well, that's the joy of this forum. People who behave like assholes over stuff like this get banned. If everyone behaves then everyone can have a conversation.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
What's wrong with being an asshole? Hope I'm not going to be a victim of asshole-ism.
I'm an asshole, I'm an asshole,
I'm an asshole 'til I die
But I'd rather be an asshole
Than to be in Delta Phi
(from my dim wayback past)
I'm an asshole, I'm an asshole,
I'm an asshole 'til I die
But I'd rather be an asshole
Than to be in Delta Phi
(from my dim wayback past)
Beyer160
Vagabond Of The Western World
I have seen others try this, but not to the scale of balsa wood and spit, which was an established retail business before they got into the guitar importing thing. Generally it's been a guy who buys a containerload of guitars and sets up a website, only to firesale the remaining inventory after a year or two when he inevitably gets eaten alive by the carrying costs of his inventory, taxes, etc because he didn't have deep enough pockets to keep going until his brand was established. BWAS was able to carry those costs for the first few years until they were established in the marketplace by having it as part of a larger operation. My guess is that Chapman is somewhere in the middle of these two examples, and seems to be holding his own.
And since you brought it up...
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
"Generally it's been a guy who buys a containerload of guitars and sets up a website, only to firesale the remaining inventory after a year or two when he inevitably gets eaten alive by the carrying costs of his inventory, taxes, etc because he didn't have deep enough pockets to keep going until his brand was established. "
I assumed the above, but that led me to the thought, "isn't there a similar business (like a Sweetwater, or ...???) that might be a bit larger than balsa wood and spit, that could try the same thing?" Not that I wouldn't order from him again, but just sort of wishing for a world filled with nice $300-400 MIK guitars.
I assumed the above, but that led me to the thought, "isn't there a similar business (like a Sweetwater, or ...???) that might be a bit larger than balsa wood and spit, that could try the same thing?" Not that I wouldn't order from him again, but just sort of wishing for a world filled with nice $300-400 MIK guitars.
Beyer160
Vagabond Of The Western World
I assumed the above, but that led me to the thought, "isn't there a similar business (like a Sweetwater, or ...???) that might be a bit larger than balsa wood and spit, that could try the same thing?" Not that I wouldn't order from him again, but just sort of wishing for a world filled with nice $300-400 MIK guitars.
I assume a business like Sweetwater makes a tidy sum from selling Fender/Squier and Gibson/Epiphone, both of whom would most likely take exception to one of their dealers carrying clones. That'd be my guess, anyway.
Now, a business that isn't as dependent on revenue from Fender & Gibson might be able to make a go of it. Adorama, Full Compass, somebody like that. It'd be a whole lot of money to risk to do it right, though. BWAS got in on the ground floor and did it slowly with no marketing, and lucked out that they timed it perfectly to coincide with the rise of internet messageboards like HC.
BEACHBUM
Margarine Advocate
I bought my AL 3100 a short time after I bought my Studio. Yes, it's heavy as Hell but I was pretty impressed by the materials, workmanship and finish. Lots of bling compared to the Studio as well. Where the Agile fell short was the no name Alnico pick ups. I was going to upgrade them but then I decided to give it to my Son in Law as a graduation present. He's not as anal about that stuff as I am and he's been very happy with it.
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Virtual Pariah
Kick Henry Jackassowski
No flames. We're all here to shoot the s&!t.
There are some other manufacturers who have worked on this model.
GFS and Hard Luck Kings comes to mind. Not sure how well it worked out though.
GFS seems to be successful HLK not so much.
Suhr tried it, but they may have picked the wrong factory as the Rasmus line never really took off.
I think MF/GC is doing it now with the Mitchell line. The big thing that many of these off brands seem to ignore is the quality/price ratio. They go MIC to get the lowest price, but tank the QA aspects.
Kurt may have been sitting on just the right location to keep his holding costs low. I think that store had been in the family for over 20 years. If he had a paid off bank lean, he could have plowed the money into better quality.
Bob411
thrumming with potential
sort of wishing for a world filled with nice $300-400 MIK guitars.
Haven't seen any Mitchells in person yet. ...and I know China IS capable of making decent guitars BUT, my first reaction is, crap, wish they were made in Korea. My perception still is " They go MIC to get the lowest price ". That means to me, lowest price is all they care about. Nothing else.
Beyer160
Vagabond Of The Western World
I'm sure that happens, but the Squier Classic Vibe line are MIC and the quality is stunning (and the price is rising to reflect this). Some guys aren't a fan of the thin necks, but that's a design element not a quality issue. At this point, I'd say that Korea, Indonesia (where the Squier VM and G&L Tribute lines are made) and China are all equally capable of producing a quality product- it's just a matter of how much the parent company is willing to pay for it.
gtrjunior
Wannabe
I recently had the opportunity to play a G&L tribute a few weeks ago...the quality was right u there with my mim Strat...and if I'm being honest it was probably better than the strat. Well...not probably...it was better.
Prages
User Error
I have an Agile 335 copy that I bought at the peak of all the online hype at HC.
Turns out, it was a decent semi-hollow for $300. I ended up upgrading the electronics, but didn't do anything else to it other than a setup.
I still have it, and it still comes out of the case from time to time.
It's definitely not on the same level as a good Gibson ES 335, but it was cheap enough, and it scratched my itch for a 335.
Turns out, it was a decent semi-hollow for $300. I ended up upgrading the electronics, but didn't do anything else to it other than a setup.
I still have it, and it still comes out of the case from time to time.
It's definitely not on the same level as a good Gibson ES 335, but it was cheap enough, and it scratched my itch for a 335.
I wasn't aware that there were still poo-slinging threads on the internet regarding Agiles (or R O N D O, for that matter), so when I heard there was one, I wandered over. Pretty tame!
I discovered Agiles in around 2008, I believe. About half a dozen of them crossed my path (I'm in El Lay) over a couple of months period, and I was surprised at the quality for the money. My first guitar was a '67 ES-335-12-string (still have it) and of the 50 or so guitars I have now (I rarely sell any), the largest representations are Gibson (mostly pre-1980), Carvin (seven of 'em including one bass), Moonstone, Nik Huber, Variax (!) and a knot of five Agiles.
My first Agile was an LP style, but came about strangely. I had a project that required a "Gibson Les Paul. Not one of those cheapo copies!" ala the band leader. It also required a Floyd Rose, and the only one Gibson was making at the time was the Axcess. I ordered up an Axcess Custom after looking at a friend's, because I wanted *white* binding, etc., and not the titty pink that showed up on the Axcess standard guitars. What I'd always hated about my other Gibson LPs was the clunky neck heel, and the Neal Schon signature guitar fixed that, but was nowhere to be found. Thus, the Axcess. But the guitar was going to need about $1500 worth of modifications, and I wanted a stalking horse; a guitar upon which I could try the changes before I committed them to the Axcess (a black one was going to be over $4K, one with a fancy top and a burst would have been another $1760). My original intention was to order up a Carvin CS6 (about $2K) and start with that.
But I noticed that Agile was offering a "semi-custom" order ability on a twice-yearly basis (at that time), so I started checking boxes.
I ordered the AL-3000 series, but with a Floyd, a wide/thin neck profile (1 3/4" nut width), a 16" radius, jumbo frets binding everywhere, neck-through construction (!) with a smooth neck heel, a full-thickness tight-flame maple top, and a one-piece back (...waitaminute...). It turned up on the same day as the Axcess (I couldn't get jumbo frets, no 16" radius, no neck-through construction, etc., on that one). The bill was $1160, with case, delivered. I suspect that the "custom shop" was actually the prototyping shop of the Korean factory, but I was stunned at how well the silly thing was constructed. It was far heavier than the Axcess (which has a thinner body and which is chambered), but I didn't mind at all.
Both guitars sounded fine and played pretty well the way they were, but both were gutted. Both got slightly hot '57s in the bridge, Fernandes sustainers, a DiMarzio Fast Track II sharing the neck pickup ring with the single-coil-size sustainer driver, OFR (German) Floyds (mostly so that we were sure that the big brass aftermarket sustain blocks wouldn't have issues), moved controls (an added rout put the Master Volume up closer to the bridge/bridge pickup and the guitars have a Master treble rolloff/tone) and the remaining two controls became a Sustainer Intensity pot and an active sweepable mids boost, and a Buckethead-style kill switch was added. The stubby cutaway horn on the Agile actually works better for me (I have huge hands). Both necks had their frets superglued and both were given a run on the PLEK (the Gibson had a Gibson hump, even though it was supposed to have been PLEK'd at the factory, the Agile had a slightly high fret at about the 16th fret but was otherwise surprisingly good). This was in 2009.
Fast forward to today, and the original Agile still plays spectacularly well and sounds great and there are absolutely no issues whatever. At some point I picked up a black AL-3100 Floyd (I'm not really a fan of black guitars, I should note) that has a standard clunky neck heel, a black AL-2000 Floyd (these actually have a Tilted neck heel that works almost as well as the Axcess for upper fret work and a 24-fret neck with the 24th fret in about the same position as a standard 22nd fret, which means that the bridge and bridge pickup are moved toward the neck pickup about 3/4" to maintain scale). Both have been fret-superglued and PLEK'd. About a year and a half ago, I found an AD2300 (double-cutaway Special-style guitar) with a set of Mike Reilander hand-wound P90 pickups aboard and picked it up for a song, and most recently (last two months) another AL-2000 Floyd (this one white) that had a sustainer and a diMarzio super distortion added. The two black guitars have been my go-to bar guitars (they have to sound good and be a credible defensive threat against staggering drunks) and they're just absolutely solid in both roles.
I was instrumental in the development of the AL-3200, which is a neck-through LP with an Axcess-like neck heel and tummy cut. At $499, and with a standard ebony fretboard and real MOP/abalone inlays, it's a helluva value compared to the lower end of the Gibson spectrum. I'm trying to get Kurt to have a bunch built with Floyds so that I can snag a couple and call it a day.
It's worth noting that R O N D O has done a helluva job bringing ERG guitars to the masses; Kurt has apparently spent some time at sevenstring.org paying attention, and while he wasn't the first 7-string out there, Agile has provided 8, 9, 10-string guitars in 27", 28.65" and even 30" scales at prices that made them *really* accessible, whereas beforehand they'd been very rare and usually custom-built and definitely expensive. Players were able to buy them, decide if they liked them, and then pass them on at only a tiny depreciation if they didn't. The big manufacturers are only now catching up, and none have caught up to the multi-scale (fan-fret) guitars in all those scales and string choices (AND with or without trems!). And the quality has been very good indeed.
I discovered Agiles in around 2008, I believe. About half a dozen of them crossed my path (I'm in El Lay) over a couple of months period, and I was surprised at the quality for the money. My first guitar was a '67 ES-335-12-string (still have it) and of the 50 or so guitars I have now (I rarely sell any), the largest representations are Gibson (mostly pre-1980), Carvin (seven of 'em including one bass), Moonstone, Nik Huber, Variax (!) and a knot of five Agiles.
My first Agile was an LP style, but came about strangely. I had a project that required a "Gibson Les Paul. Not one of those cheapo copies!" ala the band leader. It also required a Floyd Rose, and the only one Gibson was making at the time was the Axcess. I ordered up an Axcess Custom after looking at a friend's, because I wanted *white* binding, etc., and not the titty pink that showed up on the Axcess standard guitars. What I'd always hated about my other Gibson LPs was the clunky neck heel, and the Neal Schon signature guitar fixed that, but was nowhere to be found. Thus, the Axcess. But the guitar was going to need about $1500 worth of modifications, and I wanted a stalking horse; a guitar upon which I could try the changes before I committed them to the Axcess (a black one was going to be over $4K, one with a fancy top and a burst would have been another $1760). My original intention was to order up a Carvin CS6 (about $2K) and start with that.
But I noticed that Agile was offering a "semi-custom" order ability on a twice-yearly basis (at that time), so I started checking boxes.
I ordered the AL-3000 series, but with a Floyd, a wide/thin neck profile (1 3/4" nut width), a 16" radius, jumbo frets binding everywhere, neck-through construction (!) with a smooth neck heel, a full-thickness tight-flame maple top, and a one-piece back (...waitaminute...). It turned up on the same day as the Axcess (I couldn't get jumbo frets, no 16" radius, no neck-through construction, etc., on that one). The bill was $1160, with case, delivered. I suspect that the "custom shop" was actually the prototyping shop of the Korean factory, but I was stunned at how well the silly thing was constructed. It was far heavier than the Axcess (which has a thinner body and which is chambered), but I didn't mind at all.
Both guitars sounded fine and played pretty well the way they were, but both were gutted. Both got slightly hot '57s in the bridge, Fernandes sustainers, a DiMarzio Fast Track II sharing the neck pickup ring with the single-coil-size sustainer driver, OFR (German) Floyds (mostly so that we were sure that the big brass aftermarket sustain blocks wouldn't have issues), moved controls (an added rout put the Master Volume up closer to the bridge/bridge pickup and the guitars have a Master treble rolloff/tone) and the remaining two controls became a Sustainer Intensity pot and an active sweepable mids boost, and a Buckethead-style kill switch was added. The stubby cutaway horn on the Agile actually works better for me (I have huge hands). Both necks had their frets superglued and both were given a run on the PLEK (the Gibson had a Gibson hump, even though it was supposed to have been PLEK'd at the factory, the Agile had a slightly high fret at about the 16th fret but was otherwise surprisingly good). This was in 2009.
Fast forward to today, and the original Agile still plays spectacularly well and sounds great and there are absolutely no issues whatever. At some point I picked up a black AL-3100 Floyd (I'm not really a fan of black guitars, I should note) that has a standard clunky neck heel, a black AL-2000 Floyd (these actually have a Tilted neck heel that works almost as well as the Axcess for upper fret work and a 24-fret neck with the 24th fret in about the same position as a standard 22nd fret, which means that the bridge and bridge pickup are moved toward the neck pickup about 3/4" to maintain scale). Both have been fret-superglued and PLEK'd. About a year and a half ago, I found an AD2300 (double-cutaway Special-style guitar) with a set of Mike Reilander hand-wound P90 pickups aboard and picked it up for a song, and most recently (last two months) another AL-2000 Floyd (this one white) that had a sustainer and a diMarzio super distortion added. The two black guitars have been my go-to bar guitars (they have to sound good and be a credible defensive threat against staggering drunks) and they're just absolutely solid in both roles.
I was instrumental in the development of the AL-3200, which is a neck-through LP with an Axcess-like neck heel and tummy cut. At $499, and with a standard ebony fretboard and real MOP/abalone inlays, it's a helluva value compared to the lower end of the Gibson spectrum. I'm trying to get Kurt to have a bunch built with Floyds so that I can snag a couple and call it a day.
It's worth noting that R O N D O has done a helluva job bringing ERG guitars to the masses; Kurt has apparently spent some time at sevenstring.org paying attention, and while he wasn't the first 7-string out there, Agile has provided 8, 9, 10-string guitars in 27", 28.65" and even 30" scales at prices that made them *really* accessible, whereas beforehand they'd been very rare and usually custom-built and definitely expensive. Players were able to buy them, decide if they liked them, and then pass them on at only a tiny depreciation if they didn't. The big manufacturers are only now catching up, and none have caught up to the multi-scale (fan-fret) guitars in all those scales and string choices (AND with or without trems!). And the quality has been very good indeed.
This has been an ongoing prejudice among guitar players. First, Japan was the source of Junque (and later became one of the elite choices in guitar building when guitars like the Ibanez AR300 and Yamaha SG2000 blew past the early -80's Gibsons in quality of construction). Then Korea (early Variax guitars were considered $1500o worth of electronics in a $200 guitar) was reviled as "foreign crap." Then China and, of course, Indonesia. One by one, the quality of manufacturing of a wide range of goods has excelled in each of these countries. Japan ate the US Steel and then the car industry alive and even today stands at the top of car reliability and perceived quality. Korea is the new kid kicking butts and taking names. And China's rising labor rates have already been pushing their prices higher and some manufacturing out of the country. For now it's still a low-cost leader, but not for much longer. But once you've been to some of the Chinese and Indonesian factories (most of which are owned by Samick and Cort), you'll realize that they can do so much more than simply produce junk.
Danhedonia
Noted duckfat enthusiast
I have a Chinese Ibanez 12-string semi-hollow that's really, really nice.
To get back to the business model, I guess I'm anticipating that the time may be ripening (again?) for another brand to establish itself without going via retail.
I love the triple-bound LP above. That's sweet.
To get back to the business model, I guess I'm anticipating that the time may be ripening (again?) for another brand to establish itself without going via retail.
I love the triple-bound LP above. That's sweet.
The triple-bound LPs are the AL3XXX series (that one is an AL-3100) and come standard with ebony fretboards, Tusq nuts, a Graphtech NVS2 bridge, etc. Some (the -MCC versions) are full-thickness maple caps over mahogany. The AL-3XXX series also come with real MOP or Abalone inlays. The AL-3200 series guitars are neck-through construction and have body "wings," with a maple or mahogany cap (depending), and have a Gibson Axcess-style neck heel and tummy cut. They're solid body (read: fairly heavy), but really nice to play.
There are a couple of factors that are tweaking the "business model" these days. Only a few manufacturers want to bother making enough guitars for 200 Guitar Centers and about 50 Sam Ash stores, much less a number of world-wide stores. The worsening credit situation at GC means that we'll see fewer high-end guitars at these stores; we've already seen them reduce the overall high-end product mix in favor of $125 guitars to "flesh out" the walls, and some manufacturers won't provide store inventory; Guitar Center often only has a single item on the shelf and then has to wait for their fulfillment center in Kentucky (or wherever) to ship out replacements. Even then, Kentucky often has to order (and pay for it) from the manufacturer before THEY can send it out. Each time I ordered my Variax JTV89Fs, my local GCs had none in stock (there are seven stores that are "local") and the fulfillment center had none in stock and the guitars actually had to come from Calabasas (45 miles from me), get shipped to Kentucky, and then get shipped to the Pasadena store (18 miles from me). Go figure. I could have picked it up in Calabasas much more quickly. The same is true of high-end keyboards.
Carvin is another non-retail brand, but Carvin is semi-custom only; they really don't have stock guitars (most of the "in stock" guitars they have are returns, items built for shows, guitars built for their factory store, etc.). Suhr sort of floats between providing stock guitars and doing custom work for customers, but they're at a high-end in all of this.
I think you're right, however -- it's going to be far less likely that we're going to be walking into a store to pick out a guitar. That's not a downside, as far as I'm concerned. I stopped pulling guitars off the "wall" a long time ago; they're often trashed in ways that don't become obvious until you get them home, and they're frequently NOT in factory rig when you see them. Most of the guitars I've purchased of late have come from onlline sources in one manner or another, or have come from the odd traveling guitar show.