Help!I'maRock!'s winter offseason woodshedding diary - mach II

this i agree with.

My ability to play and knowledge of Jazz is not the deepest, but I do know that no one ever just started playing "free" without having the ability and many years of playing in a more traditional sense. To me "free" or "avante garde" is just the next step beyond playing more traditional forms of music in the progression of self expression. Not many people can skip steps to get there. The same goes for most of the elementary skills in music in my opinion. :)
 
My ability to play and knowledge of Jazz is not the deepest, but I do know that no one ever just started playing "free" without having the ability and many years of playing in a more traditional sense. To me "free" or "avante garde" is just the next step beyond playing more traditional forms of music in the progression of self expression. Not many people can skip steps to get there. The same goes for most of the elementary skills in music in my opinion. :)

i don't disagree with that either. but to dismiss free jazz as noise, because there is no definable beat or melody, is missing the point.
 
i don't disagree with that either. but to dismiss free jazz as noise, because there is no definable beat or melody, is missing the point.

true...I wasn't saying that, though. I guess my point is that those guys can play inside if they wanted to. They have a full skill-set to make music "in" or "out". I would imagine that if some non-player got up with an instrument and honked along with a real "free jazz" group they wouldn't have the ability to actually make "music" that makes sense with those more experienced musicians.
 
true...I wasn't saying that, though. I guess my point is that those guys can play inside if they wanted to. They have a full skill-set to make music "in" or "out". I would imagine that if some non-player got up with an instrument and honked along with a real "free jazz" group they wouldn't have the ability to actually make "music" that makes sense with those more experienced musicians.
I don't know a lot about "free jazz" in general, but it seems that what would be missing is the ability to create some sort of coherent melody or resolve anything (if there was even something to resolve to).

I don't know if a non-player is a really good example just because they wouldn't really have the technique to play along with anything that experienced players would play.

However, if a super-fast metal player or a blues player jumped in, they would probably only be able to play their stock blues licks or Yngwie-style stuff, which would sound totally out of context, unless they had some really advanced ear-training, or were jazz players in the first place which would probably give them the ability to play melodically along with fast changing or ambiguous key centers.
 
true...I wasn't saying that, though. I guess my point is that those guys can play inside if they wanted to. They have a full skill-set to make music "in" or "out". I would imagine that if some non-player got up with an instrument and honked along with a real "free jazz" group they wouldn't have the ability to actually make "music" that makes sense with those more experienced musicians.

if it makes sense, then it might not be free jazz. and i bet that the musicians up there could take whatever is thrown at them and make music out of it.

you've also inspired me to listen to "The Shape of Jazz to Come". every time i listen, i find something new. and he was right, that record was the jumping off point for the next 20 years of improvisation.
 
I don't know a lot about "free jazz" in general, but it seems that what would be missing is the ability to create some sort of coherent melody or resolve anything (if there was even something to resolve to).

I don't know if a non-player is a really good example just because they wouldn't really have the technique to play along with anything that experienced players would play.

However, if a super-fast metal player or a blues player jumped in, they would probably only be able to play their stock blues licks or Yngwie-style stuff, which would sound totally out of context, unless they had some really advanced ear-training, or were jazz players in the first place which would probably give them the ability to play melodically along with fast changing or ambiguous key centers.

if it makes sense, then it might not be free jazz. and i bet that the musicians up there could take whatever is thrown at them and make music out of it.

you've also inspired me to listen to "The Shape of Jazz to Come". every time i listen, i find something new. and he was right, that record was the jumping off point for the next 20 years of improvisation.


I think that at least on some level to the improviser at least there should be "something" that makes sense. Even a "senseless" idea in a specific context.

I've now waded out into the deep end farther than I can swim at this point, I think :)
 
:shrug:

You can't play "out" until you know how to play "in" first.
I think it's possible to learn to play "out" before you play "in" by aping certain players that play out all the time (from YouTube or records or whatever), but the trap there is that someone could only develop "stock" outside licks, and still would be unable to improvise well.

Probably the reason we rarely hear someone young pop up with a fully developed "outside" style independent of anything else is that "out" or "free" jazz really does sound like noise to most people until they can find something "in" to relate it to or hang their hat on, unlike the II-V-I progression or something like that which is universal and very recognizable.

Even the old time jazz players who did things mostly by ear were reacting to certain patterns they had learned, and basing their improvisations on those patterns.
 
I think it's possible to learn to play "out" before you play "in" by aping certain players that play out all the time (from YouTube or records or whatever), but the trap there is that someone could only develop "stock" outside licks, and still would be unable to improvise well.

Probably the reason we rarely hear someone young pop up with a fully developed "outside" style independent of anything else is that "out" or "free" jazz really does sound like noise to most people until they can find something "in" to relate it to or hang their hat on, unlike the II-V-I progression or something like that which is universal and very recognizable.

Even the old time jazz players who did things mostly by ear were reacting to certain patterns they had learned, and basing their improvisations on those patterns.

its the same thing that happens with rock guitarists. we learn a buncha licks off of records and end up repeating them in everything we do. that's not what it's supposed to be about.

i'm really very focused right now on learning music "the right way". breaking out of that "guitarist" rut i've been in for the past 18 years, and finally becoming a musician who plays the guitar. but that doesn't mean i have to sit here and play Sweet Home Alabama either.
 
its the same thing that happens with rock guitarists. we learn a buncha licks off of records and end up repeating them in everything we do. that's not what it's supposed to be about.

i'm really very focused right now on learning music "the right way". breaking out of that "guitarist" rut i've been in for the past 18 years, and finally becoming a musician who plays the guitar. but that doesn't mean i have to sit here and play Sweet Home Alabama either.
I think a lot of people hit that point eventually, where cranking out stock licks and minor variations of them doesn't work any more.

For me, it was when I was about 27 years old, after I had been playing for 13 years or so. I had been playing blues rock and classic rock covers and throwing in my own improvisations on solos at a pretty high level, but I started noticing that there were certain songs that I inevitably played wrong sounding notes on, or always stopped the solo on a wrong note. :mad: Also, that I could not alternate pick or speed pick worth shit, and all the virtuoso players I was into like Yngwie, George Lynch, EVH etc., were routinely doing stuff that was completely beyond my abilities.

This led to an intense year of study with a monster jazz player in town who taught me basic jazz theory, picking studies, playing over changes, metronome drills, how to identify all the notes on the fretboard, etc., etc., all of which has helped immensely.

The main thing he taught me was how to effectively drill on a particular thing and measure progress, which I had never done in any kind of formal manner. The closest I had really ever come to that before was to listen to parts of a song over and over with guitar in hand and keep playing with it until my part sounded right.

I'm still not where I want to be (may never be), but I am certainly a lot better musician for it.
 
The distinction between lead and rhythm guitar is B.S. Either you play guitar or you don't.

:thu: In the last rock band I was in, the singer used to introduce me as the "lead guitarist" to everyone. I had to explain to him that I just play the guitar.



No matter if it's a single note melody or a chordal part if its not in time with a good feel its not music.

Ornette Coleman would like a word with you.

I think Ornette would agree with Mark, actually. The different with Ornette is just that his definition of 'time' is much broader, and I'm sure he'd have to problem with requiring the music to have a 'good feel,' being such a vague but inclusive term.
 
yesterday, i showed all of my students the dotted 8th note thing from page 21. the best was when one kid said, "but you're the teacher. you're supposed to know everything already." i almost spit coffee across the room.

i finished page 22 tonight. played it with both parts from the dvd. so now i get to move to lesson 3, as i had planned.

page 23 is the "first solo" piece. it's a chord melody piece, which i'm really excited about. i have a lot of goals for my playing, and chord melody is one of them. it's a long piece, at 32 bars. i think the best thing to do is play one line at a time instead of trying to do the whole thing. it'll likely take me all week. but that's ok.

this whole section is actually very hard even though it is only 7 pages. page 24 takes us from triads to full chords, and then the Second Solo starts splitting them up again. there's also a very difficult picking etude and the last piece is two pages with a repeat, and coda, in cut time. even if it takes all of January to get through, i know i'll be very proud of myself when i finish it.

378 pages to go.
 
yesterday, i showed all of my students the dotted 8th note thing from page 21. the best was when one kid said, "but you're the teacher. you're supposed to know everything already." i almost spit coffee across the room.

i finished page 22 tonight. played it with both parts from the dvd. so now i get to move to lesson 3, as i had planned.

page 23 is the "first solo" piece. it's a chord melody piece, which i'm really excited about. i have a lot of goals for my playing, and chord melody is one of them. it's a long piece, at 32 bars. i think the best thing to do is play one line at a time instead of trying to do the whole thing. it'll likely take me all week. but that's ok.

this whole section is actually very hard even though it is only 7 pages. page 24 takes us from triads to full chords, and then the Second Solo starts splitting them up again. there's also a very difficult picking etude and the last piece is two pages with a repeat, and coda, in cut time. even if it takes all of January to get through, i know i'll be very proud of myself when i finish it.

378 pages to go.

with students (and sometimes when I'm practicing myself) I usually break really difficult pieces up into one measure chunks....I've learn the first measure when I can play it 3 times without making a mistake. Then I do the same thing with the second measure. Once it's in the bag I repeat the process with both measures. Once I get those two happening I'll do the third measure and then repeat with the 2nd and 3rd measures. every four bars I'll do it in a four bar chunk and so on...

Back to elephant steaks. :)
 
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