How do you view the fretboard?

[mosiddiqi]

Just curious, out of a number of things that have come up here and elsewhere, I wondered how you view or organise the fretboard.

My goal was to try and get to the Robert Fripp "think of it as one long string"..which seemed pretty liberating. However, in the real world, I'm a VERY shape oriented player..as I suspect many of us rock players particularly are, and over the years, I've learned that I really, really like this shape:

​

I'll use this as my "framework" for GMajor, Aminor (Dorian) Bminor (Phrygian) CMajor (Lydian) etc etc...of course, I'm aware of what the root note needs to be depending on what I'm playing..so If I'm improvising in G Major..I make sure that the G is my tonal centre even though the shape "starts" on A..if that makes sense

The fact that the the above shape is simply a minor pentatonic shape with "added extras" is probably the reason I like it so much..say compared to this more standard G Major fingering:

​

...which I've drilled all over the fretboard, but don't really use ( or, more accurately, don't "see" in my head very often)

That first shape, together with being able to "see" all the basic arppegios/triads in whatever key I'm in is my "view" of the fretboard.

Interestingly enough, I recently read an interview with MAB....who said that his guitar teacher told him to "always find the dorian shape"..which is the shape I posted as my favourite.

I don't think there's a right or wrong method here..as long as you can play what you want to play..but I'm interested in how you all "see" the guitar.

Thoughts?

 

[Help!I'maRock!]

i'm gonna need you to take a step back a sec, and tell me more about this "one long string" premise.

 

[John Watt]

The one thing I never thought would change has undergone a long transformation this last year, and that's switching from a '64 Strat neck replica to a short-scale, two octave neck. All my life I've been playing that neck, now with ebony and slanted lefty frets. Knowing I was losing my ability to grab chords and hit notes without looking bummed me out, as well as lingering suspicions and differences of opinion about full-scale necks being essential for Strat sounds. It made it easier using the same neck, the same width and feel, even if I started grabbing Bflats instead of A's. So I bought a same-scale acoustic to start getting used to it while I continued refinishing my electric. That's all okay.

But the biggest difference is seeing the neck as going all the way. I'm not seeing my neck as having areas for keys, and I'm not feeling the same limitations about scales, like thinking above the twelfth is just high note activity. It's easy to play up in the second octave, and while I go on about riffing like Niccolo Paganini, I'm not picking piccolo tone. I used to look at the neck for the longer areas of feedback and easy harmonics, but the tuner tremolo plate I built between the bridge plate and body softens the tone and evens out the fretboard resonance, an unexpected but really nice after-effect.

That's making life exciting for me, but grabbing an A barre chord... Johnny B. Goode, and Em... Little Wing.
I'll never change my guitar neck perspective that much.

as always, John Watt

 

[Mark Wein]

I look at it from a variety of angles, although it all ends up being just one big pattern in the end. Learning my scales and arpeggios all up one string at a time was a big pattern breaker for me. Also learning scales 3 notes per string after learning the 5 box patterns helped break out of those constraints as well. A really big thing was learning the USC "Zone System" though...I'll do something on that in a little bit..

 

[Kerouac]

I look over the side and play!

Actually this doesn't really belong in this thread, but I have a left handed student and her lefty guitar has the side dots on the same side as they are on a righty?!

Ok, so I actually organize the fretboard by note names and chord patterns. While I know and can visualize scale patterns I tend to not worry about that and just looks for the proper notes in the scale and have a strong melody, rather than getting constrained "in the box." But when I just look down at the fretboard I see note names and visualize chords.

 

[paulskirocks]

Interesting... In honor of my new BG Pups pickups and the other thread on A Dorian, I spent 2 hours last night jamming in A Dorian/A pentatonic... That is one of my favorite shapes to work off of...

I tend to see them connect like this, excluding the rest of the pattern:

​

Or, like this, depending on the key:

​

I think! It would be nice if Tinylick would give us colors...

 

[jamesp]

I've always visualized the neck as a stack of chords. Before I'd heard of CAGED I thought of it as GEDCA or EDCAG.

 

[mosiddiqi]

i'm gonna need you to take a step back a sec, and tell me more about this "one long string" premise.

IIRC, Fripp talked about how he just saw the guitar as the "lowest available note" to the "highest available note"...one long string..so he's not concerned with patterns or boxes or what fingerings are comfortable even..I kind of thought it sounded great in principle. I know the end result is the same if you can play the tune.....

 

[mosiddiqi]

I look at it from a variety of angles, although it all ends up being just one big pattern in the end. Learning my scales and arpeggios all up one string at a time was a big pattern breaker for me. Also learning scales 3 notes per string after learning the 5 box patterns helped break out of those constraints as well. A really big thing was learning the USC "Zone System" though...I'll do something on that in a little bit..

*curiousity piqued..never heard of it.*

know [/I] and can visualize scale patterns I tend to not worry about that and just looks for the proper notes in the scale and have a strong melody, rather than getting constrained "in the box." But when I just look down at the fretboard I see note names and visualize chords.

This is actually what I kind of wish I had developed over the years..just a big note "roadmap"..rather than the "boxes" that I see..albeit they're connected..hard to describe but it's a brain visualisation thing I guess.

 

[TrickyBoy]

I do utilize shapes and I also look at the fretboard in terms of relationships. Not sure if this will make sense, but I'm generally not thinking in terms of notes (letter names); instead I'm thinking about their relationship to other notes (min3, 5th, 7th, etc.). If I'm on an Eb note, I can hop to a specific interval (ex. Maj3) faster than I can tell you the letter name of the Maj3 (G).

 

[Kerouac]

This is actually what I kind of wish I had developed over the years..just a big note "roadmap"..rather than the "boxes" that I see..albeit they're connected..hard to describe but it's a brain visualisation thing I guess.

I spent several years teacherless when I first started. I already knew the note names and through patience I learned chords and started putting them on the fretboard. I didn't understand scale patterns or anything like that and since I was on an acoustic I never really messed with them until later.

 

[Mark Wein]

*curiousity piqued..never heard of it.*
.

If I can find a few minutes I'll write something up for it...

 

[Frank Prince]

I tend to think of everything I do on guitar as a linear series of intervals, even chords, which are just stacked or simultaneous intervals.

So when I learn a new line or scale or whatever, I visualize it both along one string or a serious of strings, and practice it in several different places on the neck, so I don't get so locked into patterns.

I will also use shapes, but they tend to have less melodic meaning to me, and I relate to them more as a single sonic unit than a usable line to play through chord changes.

 

[John Watt]

While Robert Fripp certainly knew how to put your musical head through, I always thought he was as much a technician as spacey rockstar. So seeing that he said he visualizes the guitar neck as the lowest note to the highest note surprises me. That's one thing I like about guitar, more than piano, having different positions with different tonal abilities for the same notes. The first surprise I found seeing Jimi Hendrix was how high up the bass strings he played. That got me thinking.

as always, John Watt

 

[rusholmeruffian]

I do utilize shapes and I also look at the fretboard in terms of relationships. Not sure if this will make sense, but I'm generally not thinking in terms of notes (letter names); instead I'm thinking about their relationship to other notes (min3, 5th, 7th, etc.). If I'm on an Eb note, I can hop to a specific interval (ex. Maj3) faster than I can tell you the letter name of the Maj3 (G).

Same here. I wish I had better interval recognition, BTW, but I've never put in the time to do the ear training work necessary.

 

[mthomps]

At this point in my playing I can't recall most of the shapes I memorized in my first years with the instrument. Although I often go back to the basic major scale position, the natural minor position, and the dorian position when I can't think of anything to play, I abandoned using these patterns because I regularly hit bad notes for the chord I was on.

After taking a break from playing the guitar and losing a lot of dexterity on the shapes, I presently look for the root of the chord I'm playing on and try to, as best that I can anyways, visualize the chord tones on the neck and fill in the chord with the possible other tones I can use, which is mostly the proper diatonic mode of the chord. I'm working on being able to find pentatonic shapes, chord tones, and the full chord scale all on the fly.

I guess I think I am improving because I know longer catch myself wanking some bad sounding scalar pattern. I have to think about the notes slower this way, but I have noticed increased familiarity with finding the chord tones on the neck and its helped make me more melodic.

 

[Virgman]

Interesting topic.

In the last year I have really simplified my use of the fretboard into two main positions. I say simplified because up to this point I was running up an down the fretboard from one end to the other for seemingly no other reason than to show I could do it!

The first position I use begins with the root of the key on the 6th string, like the G at the 3rd fret for the key of G. This would be the Ionian shape with G as root. G is my tonal center.

The other position is with the root on the fifth string as in the G of the 5th string, 10th fret. This is the Phrygian shape if B was the root. However I play this position with my pinky on the G note. G is my tonal center in other words.

I would use these positions for key of G.

The two positions move up and down the fretboard depending on the key in use. The key of C is generally played at the 8th fret only for ease of use.

Arpeggios are based off these positions for specific chords. Arpeggios are my primary focus

Improvising inside these positions by ear with G as my tonal center is also possible.

 

[Mark Wein]

Interesting topic.

In the last year I have really simplified my use of the fretboard into two main positions. I say simplified because up to this point I was running up an down the fretboard from one end to the other for seemingly no other reason than to show I could do it!

The first position begins with the root of the key on the 6th string, like the G at the 3rd fret for the key of G. This would be the Ionian shape with G as root.

The other position is with the root on the fifth string as in the G of the 5th string, 10th fret. This is the Phrygian shape with B as root.

However I would use these positions for key of G.

The two positions move up and down the fretboard depending on the key in use. The key of C is generally played at the 8th fret only for ease of use.

Arpeggios are based off these positions for specific chords and these positions are used mainly as launching points.

Do you ever find that looking at the fretboard like that limits how you phrase things? I think I might be misunderstanding....

For me the fretboard (as far as material I'm really comfortable with) is really just one big pattern where I can see how things repeat in different places.

 

[Virgman]

Do you ever find that looking at the fretboard like that limits how you phrase things? I think I might be misunderstanding....

For me the fretboard (as far as material I'm really comfortable with) is really just one big pattern where I can see how things repeat in different places.

It absolutely does. No doubt. However I am pretty much playing in one genre (jazz) so it is very functional for that since I'm looking to connect arpeggios over typical jazz chord sequences. Those same sequences keep repeating over and over.

If I was playing shred or 3note per string it would not work as well.

I have a lick I practice for fun that is a shred lick and it goes east/west on the fretboard. Not thinking arpeggios at all. I'm running up and down the scale. It's a Dorian lick I guess since it starts on the ii. I can use it over a 2-5-1.

Hey, now that you got me going, another area I have simplified is in my arpeggio selection. I used to practice all these different arpeggios from all over. I've cut down on that. I have a few for each chord type now that use all the time, like two major arps, four minor arps, etc.

It probably sounds like I'm regressing but I'm simplifying.

 

[Mark Wein]

It absolutely does. No doubt. However I am pretty much playing in one genre (jazz) so it is very functional for that since I'm looking to connect arpeggios over typical jazz chord sequences. Those same sequences keep repeating over and over.

If I was playing shred or 3note per string it would not work as well.

I have a lick I practice for fun that is a shred lick and it goes east/west on the fretboard. Not thinking arpeggios at all. I'm running up and down the scale. It's a Dorian lick I guess since it starts on the ii. I can use it over a 2-5-1.

Gotcha...so the chord tones are the most important part of your playing....makes sense.